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For the non Americans this is about voting right? What's the deal with no water is that actually a thing?
How frequently should you be able to vote? Is the government meant to change twice a week?
"No water" is one item under a broader umbrella of "no giving anything away to people standing in line to vote."
It's about preventing bribery - even really low-key bribery like putting on a campaign t-shirt and handing out snacks to people while they wait to vote.
Incidentally, any partisan apparel is also usually not allowed at polling places. No t-shirts or buttons or even talking about who you're going to vote for. American polling places are aggressively neutral.
That's actually crazy, in Australia most polling places will have a BBQ going all day, I don't appreciate the sausages but I do love the culture. Volunteers from each party will be there for a chat but if you don't want to listen to their propaganda just say no thanks mate.
"Oi mate, who're you voting for?
Ah, fuck you cahnt, want somethin' off the barbie?"
That's more or less the voting experience in Australia
Yankee here. Trying to get out of this country. You Australians accepting of bloody yanks? I’d love to add to your culture. The only thing I really know about ya’ll is that you have a good rugby team and King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard fuckin’ rocks
As I understand there are special visa programs for Americans wanting to live in Australia.
Australia has different problems to the US and in 20 years it'll be basically the same in terms of lacking social safety nets, poverty, and political polarisation.
The conservative party, called 'the Liberal party' in Australia is very successful and has been sabotaging our social safety nets and driving political divisions for the past 20 years. It has devolved into a transparent kleptocracy, trading corporate handouts and lucrative contracts for political donations.
Just today in Sydney I saw anti vaccine rallies with thousands upon thousands of people waving nationalistic flags like in the Cronulla race riots 16 years ago.
Damn. I’m looking to move to Canada, Australia, Spain, Portugal or Ireland. I realize that every place has its own unique problems but I guess I am in the mentality that “anywhere other than the USA” I’m so sick of it here
It is still better than the US for now. Moving to Aus would Id guess be easier than the European countries you mentioned. The way it is most better is the workplace culture, working unpaid OT is generally not expected, and annual leave is always four weeks per year, assuming you work full time. Around 11-13 public holidays per year depending where you live, and if certain days fall on a weekend.
Id look up visa programs on the Australian embassy website if youre actually interested.
There was a treaty signed with the US a few years ago allowing for special visas between the two countries. The program isnt well utilised so not very competitive from what I've read.
Well I am working as a radiologic tech and I specialize in MRI. I have been googling what European/other nations need in terms of migrant workers and healthcare seems up there. I just want to live in a place with cultural identity and community. Like I don’t want to be an American because our morals are fucked and people are just assholes here.
And I reckon brining over healthcare experience will look good on any immigration decision. Like I will and want to add value to a new country/culture. If you’ll have me I will work my ass off and contribute to your country
Until Reagan's second term, it was actually considered extremely rude to ask someone who she had voted for.
We were _very_ secret about ballots.
Then that changed. Too bad.
It's all about the merchandising.
The US had open ballots for the first 100 years, them switched to secret with the civil war.
Open ballots eliminates all vote fraud except forms of vote buying.
On the other hand it enables intimidation, peer pressure, groupthink and manipulation by other forms of social engineering. Vote fraud has never been a significant problem anyway, to my knowledge, despite certain recent baseless claims from a certain manbaby ex-president.
>Vote fraud has never been a significant problem anyway,
Odd then that Republicans claim every election is stolen, and vote against any measure introduced to reduce vote fraud that isn't based in disenfranchisement.
They act like they are certain that vote fraud is happening, and they are the cause.
Yea we also have like 30-40 polling places per division with a pop of roughly 65k voters each, so there's rarely much waiting to vote.
You dont get given anything either, except how to vote for x party cards. If there is food or water you have to buy it.
In the US they dont have an independent body that manages elections so polling places and divisions are decided politically, and so they intentionally create long lines to disincentivise voting in certain areas, making access to water an issue.
Fucking ozzies and their bbq. Anything and everything is an excuse for one.
Friends over? Bbq
Don’t feel like cooking something fancy? Bbq
Going to the beach? Bbq
Back from the beach? Bbq
We get it, you like fucking burning meat.
They also hand out free Fosters Beer and free Outback Blooming Onions, and everyone gets a free baby koala.
We commute to the polling place in a kangaroos pouch.
>We get it, you like fucking burning meat.
Clearly you didn't get proper barbecue. It's slow cooked for hours on end and might be charred on the outside but damn is barbeque amazing
This is true. I think what Aussies call "barbecue" would be called "grilling" in USA, and is vastly inferior (albeit more convenient) than proper Southern barbecue.
I'd love to grow proper BBQ culture in Australia, so good!
Fastest way to do it? Bake it in the oven at low heat then finish on a charcoal grill for a nice char
Actually that’s not what the water is about, recently right wing politicians have been trying to prevent people from handing out water to people standing in line while waiting to vote. Because wait times in order to vote can be hours long like eight hours long, People get thirsty. So people try to hand out the water so that way they won’t get out of line and just give up on voting because they don’t want to wait for eight hours while they’re thirsty. But politicians on the right dont want people to vote so they’re making it illegal to hand them water while they wait eight hours to cast their ballot.
This is absolutely false. I’m not a Republican but I am seeing misinformation as much on the left as on the right. If you want water you can get water. The law is to prevent people campaigning for a candidate to hand out water, food, or anything else with the candidates name on it. If you need water poll workers can still give you water. You don’t know this because you get your information from memes on Facebook and other misinformed people on Reddit. Read the actual law, stop with the stupidity, and that applies to people on BOTH sides.
If the same aggressively neutral authorities that *run* the polling stations just also provided water, surely that'd satisfy the neutrality requirement?
Here in Denmark there's one of those office water bottle things. You want water? Just go... Grab it?
Sounds like you're assuming they're waiting in line indoors. Or that they're able to leave the line and come back.
Lines? What are lines?
This is standard in most countries.
Voter ID is standard in most EU countries (if you are adult you have ID card which you shows during election but also to police if they ask questions, that simple).
About neutral voting places - its also more or less standard. In Poland we have so called "voting silence" - all election weekend ban on media reporting of votes except official communications till the voting ends.
As European I really don't understand American concerns about IDing voters. This increases trusts to voting, makes verification really simple. If people don't have ID gov should just fund it.
The problem with the ID thing in America is that IDs can be expensive and incredibly inconvenient to get, which means requiring an ID to vote results in voting that costs money and is inconvenient. We already tried the "pay money to cast a vote" thing once and it turned out to be monstrous.
The problem is that Poland and half of EU countries have less income than US and ID is an expense of 5 USD every 5 years for new picture.
That's not expensive.
1. Depends on your jurisdiction. I've never paid as little as $5. Between all the assorted fees and such, I don't think I've ever paid as little as $20.
2. $5 is a ton of money for lots of people - it could be a week of sandwiches, or it could be a vote. If you're hungry, which one are you going to pick?
Every state that passed a voter id law also allows residents to get an ID for free. Every single one. Get off Facebook.
From the ACLU:
Obtaining ID Costs Money. Even if ID is offered for free, voters must incur numerous costs (such as paying for birth certificates) to apply for a government-issued ID.
Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175.
The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office.3
170 miles is the same as 547175.6 'Logitech Wireless Keyboard K350s' laid widthwise by each other.
Paying for birth certificates is a burden? Should we require a pulse or that’s too much as well?
The point is that the ID isn't actually free if the required supporting documents are not also free.
I think the upside of voter id and preventing fraud far outweighs the insanely small number of people who don’t have a birth certificate and don’t have the means to obtain a birth certificate.
The argument is so ridiculous, if they gave the birth certificate for free you would still claim hardship because they have to go through the oppressive act of going to pick up their birth certificate.
America overwhelmingly approved of voter id laws. It is common sense and such a small easy way to minimize the risk of fraud. It’s this stupidity that is causing so many people to leave the Democrat party.
And I'd say that disenfranchising an eligible voter is worse than allowing someone to vote who shouldn't. Especially since there just plain isn't voter fraud like what you're so afraid of.
Meanwhile Aussie polling places are cheerfully neutral, and also have food. And if you don't vote you can be tracked down and fined for not voting, as it is compulsory. I van like our way better.
I think (I’m also not American) that the implied criticism is not how often, but the fact that elections are held in weekdays instead of weekends/holidays and that employers aren’t required to give you leave.
Just as a comparison, here in Brazil elections are always holidays and if you are randomly selected to help at Election Day all employers must give you two days paid leave as a bonus. Also whomever gets the majority of votes wins, there is no electoral college, but I digress… (we still voted Bolsonaro in, so for all my bragging there’s that… god we’re so fucked).
Thirty states require time off to vote. Some of these states also require that you provide paid time off to vote.
So yes there's no federal law but some states have state laws.
Everyone shits on America but most Americans just don't know their federal or state laws.
Or Brazilians, apparently.
You randomly pick people to do polling duties? That's kinda cool. In Australia its well paid work but only for one day. They are a bit strict as to who can do it I understand, like you cant be a member of a party if I recall.
Yeah this is about voting. If anyone missed the point it's showing how there are so many restrictions against voting. Something I think should be a national holiday every year to encourage voting. With guns, many politicians want to make it easier to buy guns.
> In Europe, getting a gun is possible with acceptable effort, but also you need to invest some money and time first.
*In Switzerland*: a 2-page form (2nd page is only for place, date, signature) + photocopy of passport + excerpt from the criminal records (one orders it online for ~$21). Send it in an envelope to state police, gets back to you in 7-10 days: done. Valid for buying up to three guns for each permit. There's no limit on how many permits you can get. Effort, cost, time invested = minimal.
Out of curiosity, what counts as a gun? For example, are these rules the same for antique/collector weapons? Black powder or cartridge? Single-shot or high-capacity magazine? I ask due to the prevalence of heirloom weapons in my family.
This is the actual law:
(it's in Italian, my language. Maybe there's a version in English too)
It shows that antique weapons are firearms made before 1870 and bladed weapons made before 1900. It doesn't say if there's any requirements. It just mentions them once as being considered "weapons", but it doesn't say anything further.
Cool! Thanks! It's really interesting, although I'm not going to be moving to Switzerland anytime soon-- beautiful country, though, last time I visited. :-)
Thank you! Glad you had a chance to see my nation and enjoyed it!
It only barely counts-- I only got to see Zurich. One of these days when I have the time and the money, I'd like to spend a few weeks really roaming around. It's absolutely gorgeous.
Yessir, it would be great if you could see the Alps as well. There's some cantons that are spectacular. Probably the nicest looking is Graubünden (where St Moritz is), followed by Valais, then Ticino.
Yeah, that would work. In europe, getting a gun is possible with acceptable effort, but you need to invest some money and time first. Our weapon laws greatly reduce gun crimes. 7 years as a paramedic in Dresden, Germany, and I encountered one gunshot wound. I bet my american colleagues have different experiences.
Your mental health services and social safety nets reduce gun crimes. Crime is a result of poor socioeconomic status necessitating criminal activity just to survive. And violent crime is typically a combination of that and poor access to mental health services. Gun crime is caused by the exact same factors as any other violent crime.
Nah mate, cant shoot someone if you got no gun. and building a gun is quite difficult. Sure you are right about socioeconomic issues promoting violent crime, but also being forced into melee is quite a deterrent for violence. Its (emotionally) easier to shoot then to stab someone.
You're severely overselling the difficulty of making a gun. And if you account for the socioeconomic differences between the US and Germany you'll notice fairly similar crime rates across the board. By which I mean that if Germany had similar socioeconomic conditions to the US, the per capita crime rates of all types would be very similar. And even maintaining a gun ban, after adjusting for socioeconomic differences what you lack in gun violence you make up for in stabbings. And that's not even getting into the fact that the banning of firearms is a tool of the bourgeoisie used in order to keep the proletariat complacent.
No. We would have different violent crime, but gun violence would still be lower per capita. You cant have gun violence if you got no guns. The same way you cant have charges for possessing weed if owning weed is fully legalised. Donyou understand that concept?
There is a point where you two are talking past each other, but there’s a valid point to be made on both ends-
A. Without ready and easy access to firearms, instances of shootings resulting in GSWs is reduced.
B. If the conditions that generate violent crime aren’t addressed, then violent crime will still continue, just using different means, leading to a large amount of things such as stabbings, acid attacks, and more.
A and B can both be true at the same time.
I think what Dong is trying to argue is that anti-gun legislation isn’t so much effective at stopping violent crime, as much as lowering firearm related crime, but that it only addresses the means to commit a specific type of violent crime without addressing the reasons those crimes happen in the first place.
I don’t think you’re arguing against that instead moreso that Less Guns = Less Gun Crime, not necessarily less violent crime period.
Yes, but we are talking about gunviolence, not violent crime in general.
*You* are. I don’t think Dong is, hence my assessment that at this point you kind of ended up talking past each other.
Thats interesting that someone is talking about a different topic. Make your own thread and stay on topic here.
And now my change in topic is to just assume at this point that you don’t really give a shit and would *actually prefer* to argue circles with that guy given a nice warm and hostile response.
I’m not disagreeing with you. Less guns means less gun violence, I agree, but past that u/Box_O_Donguses raised points that while valid, are only tangentially related to what you’re discussing. You haven’t endeavored to actually argue his points *or* redirect the discussion back onto the topic *you* were originally on. Two ships sailing past each other.
But I’m not your mom. It’s your free time to spend as you want, and I have the distinct feeling you aren’t really in the mood for a discussion given your last comment.
So, at this point, I wish you good luck, and a less than civil wish for you to fornicate with yourself.
There are over 300 million known guns in the hands of American citizens. Banning guns won't just make them disappear.
Oh, I don't know. Maybe about the same...
how many stab wounds have you patched up?
In my country, you can buy zero guns on any Tuesday in any month of of every year. But you can get water, when you stand in line for something. The number of mass shootings is surprisingly low here, just like the number of deaths caused by dehydration.
You have no rights in Australia. Careful what you wish for. When you compare Austrilia to the US. It pales in comparison.
No, in fact the US constitution should add an amendment that says every citizen is required to have been provided a national firearm at no expense at least once ( You can sell it if you want no biggie )
Thank you kind sir
Sign me up for that
That’s a ridiculously dumb proposal. Is the theory that less guns equal less crime and by restricting the amount of guns one can buy and available days to buy them that it would end gun violence? It might reduce some gun violence but doesn’t at all address the overall violence issue. People go on mass stabbings, a dude just drove thru a parade, on 9/11 guys with box cutters changed the world. I get the sentiment, but the idea that taking away a weapon will prevent a person from finding a way to carry out a violent act is ignorant to the many wars and violence that existed before firearms.
The fact that you don't recognize the analogy to voting is sad and hilarious.
I do recognize that. But it’s also about guns. Just like my comment is also about politics. Essentially I’m saying that solving a tiny part of any problems guns or corruption in government never results in the desired solution. Restrictions on guns doesn’t even violence and voting doesn’t solve social issues.
You have completely missed the point of the post.
It’s about guns only in a way that it’s an analogy. These very obviously dumb restrictions exist for voting, and just like how the restrictions for guns would be stupid af and help nothing, these voting restrictions are dumb and help nothing.
It uses guns because it is a common issue among those who believe that the restrictions on voting work. Its obvious to those people how dumb those restrictions would be on guns, so they should also see how dumb the voting restrictions are.
The post agrees with you. The point is that these restrictions are a terrible idea lmao.
I think people are thinking I’m just arguing for guns. I don’t think voting does any good just like gun control doesn’t stop violence. Our politicians on both sides are crap and corrupt. In bed with too many corporate interests to even begin to care about the interests of the people who elect them. I’m anti violence and anti big government.
Your argument can be summarized as "it might reduce some gun violence, but it's inconvenient for my interests."
No my argument is focusing on generally ending all violence is a better solution than just focusing on gun violence. But you can twist it however you want. Anyone who reads what I said with an open mind will understand exactly what I’m saying.
Traffic lights and speed limits don't end auto fatalities, so we should get rid of them, amirite?
> focusing on generally ending all violence
Maybe I missed it but you don't seem to have made any proposals for how you think that might be achieved. Or are you just saying that "if doing X doesn't prevent all forms of violence then it's completely useless"?
A huge step in the right direction would be a better mental health system. The government is the reason our mental health system sucks. Decades ago most of that portion of health care was shut down. I’ve worked in healthcare and that part of the system is horrible. If it was better people would have more options and violence and homelessness wouldn’t be what we see today. Also media glorifying shooters contributes to more shooters. If we stopped plastering these assholes faces all over tv and making them famous we wouldn’t have as many copy cats looking for their 15 mins of fame the next week. My whole point is we shouldn’t just attack a complex problem from one angle thinking it’s gonna solve it.
this post ain’t about guns
I think that you should be able to buy a gun without an ID as it’s an undue burden on exercising your rights.
I also oppose Voter ID laws because it’s an undue burden on exercising your rights.
I mean, buying guns without ID could easily be exploited
I mean, voting without ID could easily be exploited.
Edit: I don’t actually believe this. But it’s funny how everyone jumps on the bandwagon that one right should be regulated and made a PITA out the wazoo just because they don’t like it.
Guns should have ID’s and mental checks for safety reasons
Voting should have IDs and mental checks for safety reasons.
Based as hell
You still can't have water
Your logic and common sense have no place here...
Not federally, which is the comparison here.
“But that’ll never work! Next you’re gonna say we should do that for our election system!”
It's all about control. That's how Hilter came into power.
The Democrats claimed other wise when Trump was elected. Democrats are hypocrites.
I don't understand this.. voting can be done by mail. There are countless places to vote in person at. Only certain states require ID to vote(every state should though)
Am I missing something?
I'm the opposite make everyone get a gun and get trained with it, wait a couple years for all the jackasses to be dead or in prison because they used either an illegal gun or the gift gun incorrectly and then boom no more criminals because everybody who's still kicking knows if the commit a crime their likely to get shot, no more hostages no more robberies, no more muggings, no more rape, boom none of it
A de facto banning of firearms. Already struck down.
Why's it ok for voting?